Libertarianie a komunikacja miejska

Czy przyłapałeś się ostatnio na korzystaniu z komunikacji miejskiej?

  • Tak.

    Votes: 35 77,8%
  • Nie.

    Votes: 10 22,2%

  • Total voters
    45

Zbyszek_Z

Well-Known Member
992
2 334
Nie szukałbym logiki w państwie, gdzie zzabieranie pieniędzy na rzeczy, które nie chcesz płacić jest w porzadku a niepłaczenie haraczu czyni z ciebie przestępcę, ale ty zamieniasz 2 zł na bilet-kupon o wartości 2 zł. Nikt ci nie gwarantuje za to przejazdu to jest jak wymiana waluty czy kupon o wartości 10 zł do wydania w jakimś sklepie po czym wszystko tam podrożało.

W bilet taki kupon zmienia się dopiero po skasowaniu.
 

Ciek

Miejsce na Twoją reklamę
Członek Załogi
4 589
11 235
Tak na zdrowy rozsądek wydaje mi się, że kupując bilet nie kupił usługi tylko zamienił walutę PLN na "walutę przewoźnika" (bilet). Usługę kupuje dopiero w chwili skasowania biletu i jej wartość jest wyrażona PLN ale płatność dokonywana jest w biletach. Skoro zatem nie ma biletu odpowiadającego wartości usługi to zapłacił zbyt mało. Jechałem kilka miesięcy temu autobusem (więc wiem co to znaczy być gnębionym przez system ;) ) i z nudów czytałem sobie regulamin, co mnie szczególnie zdziwiło to fakt, że nie można było zapłacić za usługę biletami o mniejszym nominale - np. 10 minut przejazdu kosztuje 1 zł, a 20 minut 2 zł i regulamin wyłączał możliwość skasowania 2 biletów za 1 zł w zamian za 20 minut przejazdu, czy tam łączenie dwóch ulgowych w 1 nieulgowy - tego już szczerze mówiąc nie rozumiem ale jak to się mówi "twoja piaskownica - twoje zabawki". Więcej mam nadzieję z tych usług nie korzystać, nauczyłem się, że w takiej sytuacji bierze się taxi :)
 

military

FNG
1 766
4 638
W mojej wsi bez problemu skasujesz dwa mniejsze bilety za jeden większy. Nawet sami kierowcy, jak u nich kupujesz bilet, zwykle dają po dwa ulgowe. W każdym razie jeśli bilet to waluta przewoźnika, to dlaczego jest na nim napisane "bilet uprawniający do jednokrotnego przejazdu"?
 

Caleb

The Chosen
509
261
Tak na zdrowy rozsądek wydaje mi się, że kupując bilet nie kupił usługi tylko zamienił walutę PLN na "walutę przewoźnika" (bilet). Usługę kupuje dopiero w chwili skasowania biletu i jej wartość jest wyrażona PLN ale płatność dokonywana jest w biletach.
W takim razie bilet jest "prawnym środkiem płatniczym", czy li mamy państwo w państwie.
 
OP
M

MichalD

Guest
OP
D

Deleted member 427

Guest
Być może już w drugiej połowie roku mieszkańcy Żor (Śląskie) będą jeździć autobusami za darmo. Bezpłatną komunikację w mieście postanowiły wprowadzić lokalne władze, tłumacząc to względami społecznymi i ekologicznymi. W czwartek poinformowały o swoich planach.

Z analiz żorskiego magistratu wynika, że liczba pasażerów miejskich autobusów w ostatnich latach systematycznie spada, co skutkuje coraz wyższymi cenami biletów. Rośnie też dopłata z budżetu gminy do komunikacji. Obecnie stanowi ona 72 proc. kosztów przewoźnika. Wzrost cen biletów w jeszcze większym stopniu ogranicza liczbę korzystających z komunikacji i błędne koło się zamyka - tłumaczą lokalne władze.

[link]
 

hanys

Active Member
171
133
Żory są bankrutem, więc pewnie parę mln w jedną czy drugą stronę różnicy im nie zrobi. Dwa, władze Żor znane są ze swoich genialnych pomysłów i inwestycji, od kilku lat budują misia, który kosztuje x10 niż zaplanowali i jest nikomu nie potrzebny.



http://zory.naszemiasto.pl/artykul/galeria/1783296,muzeum-ognia-zory-z-rpo-dostalismy-dofinansowanie-w,id,t.html
 

Caleb

The Chosen
509
261
No cóż...
Kto ustala rozkład jazdy?
Kolej pasażerska to najsilniej regulowany przez różne szczeble władzy segment rynku transportowego.

(...)

Słowem, rozkład jazdy znakomitej większości kursów nie jest wyznaczany przez przewoźników konkurujących ze sobą i z innymi środkami transportu ofertą, ale przez urzędnicze decyzje. Marszałkowie województw i minister transportu decydują, które trasy będą obsługiwane, jak duża będzie liczba połączeń, a ponadto wskazują godziny odjazdów — to oni, a nie rynek, wybierają więc, dla kogo przygotowana będzie oferta
Źródło: mises.pl
 

freelancer

Dobrowolnościowiec
163
163
Właśnie dostałem "wezwanie do opłaty dodatkowej" za jazdę bez ważnego biletu, kiedy, o ironio, wybierałem się doładować komkartę. Na początku chciałem kombinować, bo żal 3 stówek (dwóch jeżeli zapłaciłbym w ciągu tygodnia), ale z drugiej strony nie chciałbym mieć przez 5 lat zawalonej skrzynki pocztowej sądowniczym spamem. No i w sumie to zajmując miejsce w tramwaju zawarłem umowę z przewoźnikiem, więc powinienem się cieszyć, że nie ma poważniejszych konsekwencji ;)
 

FatBantha

sprzedawca niszowych etosów
Członek Załogi
7 888
22 106
Niech nie zabierają, niech nie jeździ i dadzą zarobić januszerskim busiarzom.

Proszę, inna argumentacja.
 

myname

Member
96
87
Niech nie zabierają, niech nie jeździ i dadzą zarobić januszerskim busiarzom.

Proszę, inna argumentacja.
Bądź realistą przecież w tym kraju do końca istnienia świata i tak ludzie nie pójdą na wasze szaloną wolność jaką jest zrobienie prywatnej komunikacji miejskiej, bo będzie umieranie pod płotem.Ja idę na sposobność szczęśliwego komunizmu w którym nie będzie spamu mojej skrzynki pocztowej.Krach ekonomiczny to kwestia czasu to lepiej zrobić nawet na krechę, albo wydać z tego co już zabrali i git.Nie ma co odkładać niczego na później.Ktoś już opisał cudowna ekonomie jednego miasta.Przecież cały system RP=zadłużenie
 

FatBantha

sprzedawca niszowych etosów
Członek Załogi
7 888
22 106
Ale po co ci te tramwaje, autobusy albo nawet przystanki, co? Niech sobie ludzie jeżdżą kiedy im pasuje i sobie dorabiają, jeśli chcą. Dlaczego mają mieć sponsorowaną przez władzę miasta czy państwa uprzywilejowaną konkurencję?

Kiedyś drogowa komunikacja miejska była w większości prywatna. Nie dość, że jeździła częściej, z lepszym rozkładem jazdy, to żeby ludziom odebrać tę opcję, musieli ją zdelegalizować.

Even at the dawn of the automobile, enterprising owners were looking to make money, rules be damned
by Dale Johnson | November 9, 2016

A Ford Model T jitney in 1915, ferrying soldiers around the grounds of the CNE.City of Toronto Archives

The current kerfuffle confronting cabs and Uber in cities across Ontario is strikingly similar to a battle a century ago. That’s when jitneys arrived – private passenger cars offering rides to strangers for a fee, originally five cents. Like Uber, the arrival of jitneys confused and puzzled legislators, was praised by riders and provided a chance for car owners to earn some money. Also like Uber, there were concerns about safety, insurance coverage and the qualifications of drivers.
Jitneys disrupted the traditional passenger transportation system; it was not the taxi industry that was affected, but the privately owned municipal street railway system (as well as the city-owned Toronto Civic Railways) in the era before the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) was created.
The first mention of jitneys was in the Toronto Daily Star on Jan. 29, 1915, under the headline “The Jitneys Are Coming.” The article said: “A new form of opposition to trolley cars has arisen. It is the Jitney – or the five-cent auto ride … . No franchise is granted, anybody that can buy one can operate it wherever he can get enough business to make it pay … . It has been found that an ordinary auto can make money in the business, and everyday sees more and more of them engaging in it.”
A Toronto Daily Star front page from February 22, 1915.

A Toronto Daily Star front page from February 22, 1915.
The first jitney in Toronto was front-page news on Feb. 22, 1915: “THE JITNEY ARRIVED IN TORONTO TO-DAY” and the article said the first run was in the Rosedale area just north of downtown at 7:50 a.m., from the corner of Glen Road and South Drive. “Five minutes later it turned at the corner of Summerhill avenue and Glen road, and after a short pause started back again … . The machine caused no small sensation. Every pedestrian headed toward the cars was greeted by a tooting of the motor horn as a signal.”
A reporter on that very first trip wrote that passengers included a “young bank clerk who got up a little late and an elderly gentleman who found the walking slippery.”
Jitneys were soon popular across Ontario – especially in areas that had poor streetcar service.
“The ‘jitney’ has caught on in West Toronto. A large seven-passenger touring car, bearing the invitation ‘From Keele to Lambton. Five cents.’ made its debut at the corner of Keele and Dundas streets at 4:00 yesterday, and soon had on board a capacity load,” the paper reported on March 20, 1915.
As the word spread and jitneys became more popular, they also became more crowded.
One person who used to ride jitneys was Bill Newberry, who arrived in Toronto from England in 1912 at the age of 13. Newberry wrote in the Star on June 13, 1970, about his memories of riding in jitneys from work downtown to his home on Helendale Ave., just north of Eglinton and Yonge.
“On a winter’s night, 30 or more people would wait for one of these Noah’s Ark vehicles. When one did appear, everybody would rush and fall inside, one on top of each other with no respect for the car, the driver or his ability to balance the craft. A jitney, built to hold four, would probably have eight or nine passengers piled on top of each other … . Those underneath probably gasping for a breath, or suffering a wet, snowy overcoat jammed in their faces.”
And there were more drawbacks to jitneys other than the lack of comfort. Like Uber today, the safety of passengers and drivers was an issue; many passengers and drivers ended up in court. Sometimes the passengers were found guilty of disorderly conduct while riding in a jitney. In other cases, the jitney drivers were found guilty of assaulting passengers. Drivers also faced less serious offences, like failing to stop for a police officer, or driving with a burned-out rear light. All in all, these cases raised questions about whether it was safe to travel in a jitney.
Many privately run street railway systems across Canada saw their ridership drop and revenues decline when jitneys arrived, as many people preferred the advantages of jitneys – lower costs and better schedules.
This picture in the Toronto Daily Star on June 23, 1920 had the caption: Fleet of Jitneys Moving Up Yonge Street at Noon Today. Here is an unusual photograph taken by the Star at noon today from Queen & Yonge Sts. showing Toronto's main thoroughfare without streetcars but possessed by an endless procession of motor cars of every shape and size.

This picture in the Toronto Daily Star on June 23, 1920 had the caption: “Fleet of Jitneys Moving Up Yonge Street at Noon Today. Here is an unusual photograph taken by the Star at noon today from Queen & Yonge Sts. showing Toronto’s main thoroughfare without streetcars but possessed by an endless procession of motor cars of every shape and size.”
Jitneys proved to be especially popular in Toronto when transit strikes – in 1917, 1919 and 1920 – shut down the street railway system. When the strikes were on, jitney drivers flocked to Toronto from nearby communities, including Hamilton. In some cases, jitney drivers jacked up their prices from a nickel to 25 cents – based on the idea of supply and demand. These days, so-called “surge pricing” by Uber is controversial.
However, by the mid-1920s demand for jitneys began to decline for two main reasons: a changing economy and improved public transit. As the economy improved, it was easier for people to find work, so using their personal vehicle to provide rides to strangers was a less attractive way to earn money. And more jobs meant more people could afford their own vehicles.
As well, the Toronto Transportation Commission (later renamed the Toronto Transit Commission) was created in 1921, bringing together all of the various privately run systems. Service was improved and expanded, which attracted more riders.
The Ontario government announced that jitneys would no longer be allowed to operate after June 30, 1928. But some jitney drivers defied the law and kept picking up passengers. Some ended up in court and faced fines of up to $30. Appeals of the ban continued for months, but ultimately it was upheld in court. This was around the same time that demand for jitneys was dropping off, and they were no longer part of transportation in Ontario.
So in many ways, the current controversies over Uber – insurance, licensing, safety and the impact on the competition – aren’t really that new after all.
 
Ostatnia edycja:

myname

Member
96
87
Ale po co ci te tramwaje, autobusy albo nawet przystanki, co? Niech sobie ludzie jeżdżą kiedy im pasuje i sobie dorabiają, jeśli chcą. Dlaczego mają mieć sponsorowaną przez władzę miasta czy państwa uprzywilejowaną konkurencję?

Kiedyś drogowa komunikacja miejska była w większości prywatna. Nie dość, że jeździła częściej, z lepszym rozkładem jazdy, to żeby ludziom odebrać tę opcję, musieli ją zdelegalizować.

Even at the dawn of the automobile, enterprising owners were looking to make money, rules be damned
by Dale Johnson | November 9, 2016

A Ford Model T jitney in 1915, ferrying soldiers around the grounds of the CNE.City of Toronto Archives

The current kerfuffle confronting cabs and Uber in cities across Ontario is strikingly similar to a battle a century ago. That’s when jitneys arrived – private passenger cars offering rides to strangers for a fee, originally five cents. Like Uber, the arrival of jitneys confused and puzzled legislators, was praised by riders and provided a chance for car owners to earn some money. Also like Uber, there were concerns about safety, insurance coverage and the qualifications of drivers.
Jitneys disrupted the traditional passenger transportation system; it was not the taxi industry that was affected, but the privately owned municipal street railway system (as well as the city-owned Toronto Civic Railways) in the era before the TTC (Toronto Transit Commission) was created.
The first mention of jitneys was in the Toronto Daily Star on Jan. 29, 1915, under the headline “The Jitneys Are Coming.” The article said: “A new form of opposition to trolley cars has arisen. It is the Jitney – or the five-cent auto ride … . No franchise is granted, anybody that can buy one can operate it wherever he can get enough business to make it pay … . It has been found that an ordinary auto can make money in the business, and everyday sees more and more of them engaging in it.”
A Toronto Daily Star front page from February 22, 1915.

A Toronto Daily Star front page from February 22, 1915.
The first jitney in Toronto was front-page news on Feb. 22, 1915: “THE JITNEY ARRIVED IN TORONTO TO-DAY” and the article said the first run was in the Rosedale area just north of downtown at 7:50 a.m., from the corner of Glen Road and South Drive. “Five minutes later it turned at the corner of Summerhill avenue and Glen road, and after a short pause started back again … . The machine caused no small sensation. Every pedestrian headed toward the cars was greeted by a tooting of the motor horn as a signal.”
A reporter on that very first trip wrote that passengers included a “young bank clerk who got up a little late and an elderly gentleman who found the walking slippery.”
Jitneys were soon popular across Ontario – especially in areas that had poor streetcar service.
“The ‘jitney’ has caught on in West Toronto. A large seven-passenger touring car, bearing the invitation ‘From Keele to Lambton. Five cents.’ made its debut at the corner of Keele and Dundas streets at 4:00 yesterday, and soon had on board a capacity load,” the paper reported on March 20, 1915.
As the word spread and jitneys became more popular, they also became more crowded.
One person who used to ride jitneys was Bill Newberry, who arrived in Toronto from England in 1912 at the age of 13. Newberry wrote in the Star on June 13, 1970, about his memories of riding in jitneys from work downtown to his home on Helendale Ave., just north of Eglinton and Yonge.
“On a winter’s night, 30 or more people would wait for one of these Noah’s Ark vehicles. When one did appear, everybody would rush and fall inside, one on top of each other with no respect for the car, the driver or his ability to balance the craft. A jitney, built to hold four, would probably have eight or nine passengers piled on top of each other … . Those underneath probably gasping for a breath, or suffering a wet, snowy overcoat jammed in their faces.”
And there were more drawbacks to jitneys other than the lack of comfort. Like Uber today, the safety of passengers and drivers was an issue; many passengers and drivers ended up in court. Sometimes the passengers were found guilty of disorderly conduct while riding in a jitney. In other cases, the jitney drivers were found guilty of assaulting passengers. Drivers also faced less serious offences, like failing to stop for a police officer, or driving with a burned-out rear light. All in all, these cases raised questions about whether it was safe to travel in a jitney.
Many privately run street railway systems across Canada saw their ridership drop and revenues decline when jitneys arrived, as many people preferred the advantages of jitneys – lower costs and better schedules.
This picture in the Toronto Daily Star on June 23, 1920 had the caption: Fleet of Jitneys Moving Up Yonge Street at Noon Today. Here is an unusual photograph taken by the Star at noon today from Queen & Yonge Sts. showing Toronto's main thoroughfare without streetcars but possessed by an endless procession of motor cars of every shape and size. 's main thoroughfare without streetcars but possessed by an endless procession of motor cars of every shape and size.

This picture in the Toronto Daily Star on June 23, 1920 had the caption: “Fleet of Jitneys Moving Up Yonge Street at Noon Today. Here is an unusual photograph taken by the Star at noon today from Queen & Yonge Sts. showing Toronto’s main thoroughfare without streetcars but possessed by an endless procession of motor cars of every shape and size.”
Jitneys proved to be especially popular in Toronto when transit strikes – in 1917, 1919 and 1920 – shut down the street railway system. When the strikes were on, jitney drivers flocked to Toronto from nearby communities, including Hamilton. In some cases, jitney drivers jacked up their prices from a nickel to 25 cents – based on the idea of supply and demand. These days, so-called “surge pricing” by Uber is controversial.
However, by the mid-1920s demand for jitneys began to decline for two main reasons: a changing economy and improved public transit. As the economy improved, it was easier for people to find work, so using their personal vehicle to provide rides to strangers was a less attractive way to earn money. And more jobs meant more people could afford their own vehicles.
As well, the Toronto Transportation Commission (later renamed the Toronto Transit Commission) was created in 1921, bringing together all of the various privately run systems. Service was improved and expanded, which attracted more riders.
The Ontario government announced that jitneys would no longer be allowed to operate after June 30, 1928. But some jitney drivers defied the law and kept picking up passengers. Some ended up in court and faced fines of up to $30. Appeals of the ban continued for months, but ultimately it was upheld in court. This was around the same time that demand for jitneys was dropping off, and they were no longer part of transportation in Ontario.
So in many ways, the current controversies over Uber – insurance, licensing, safety and the impact on the competition – aren’t really that new after all.
Ja nie chcę ci się pracować dużo to się nie ma samochodu oraz jak jescze nie masz dobrej fuchy.Na skok gospodarczy nie ma co na razie liczyć.Pensja krajowa down 2000 i kup sobie samochód.
 
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